Christians, can you point out the flaw in this argument?

Your going to hurt their brains and they are going to start shouting "Free will!" and "God works mysteriously!" which really means: "I can't answer but the religion has been indoctrinated too much to doubt my religion." I've seen it before, I've asked similar questions to this.

EDIT

Look, primoa1970 just did it! Who called it? I think I did.

And T just said "Free will!" Goddamn I might be psychic, maybe I should have my own religion, it is time for JCism.

"h) Since f and g are contradictory this is a logical proof that your God does not exist. There may be a creator deity, but not as you have defined it."

I'm not sure many christians define god in this manner. yes, they think he's omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, creator, and loving, but they think he's always just. What's just to one may not be just to another.

Also, just because I love someone doesn't mean I'm going to keep them from certain suffering. I love my children, and I tell them not to touch the stove because it's hot and it will burn them...but unless they touch it themselves they won't learn the lesson. So I allow them to touch it. This not only teaches them the lesson, but also teaches them to trust me and have faith that what I say is true and accurate. Also, what is suffering to one person isn't suffering to another. One person may be extremely happy living a comfortable life without a lot of money in the country, whereas another person wants tons of money living in the city. The city girl would consider the country girl lifestyle suffering. You just can't have an entirely utopian society without any suffering at all. When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. It's all relative.

"Remember your God is infinitely knowledgeable and infinitely powerful. Hence if has to be possible for Him to teach any lesson, achieve any purpose, allow for any free will and still prevent suffering."

And, it's hard to teach a lesson without any suffering involved.

I'm not a christian by definition, but I still don't think a god would have a world like you described above.

All "scientific sounding" arguments against evolution have been refuted - relatively by way of fact they weren't scientific interior the 1st place, and basically sound scientific to those who have not studied the matters in touch intimately. fairly irrational arguments based on the Bible are all that they have. Edit: Has absolutely everyone relatively examine the Raoult e book (Depasser Darwin) suggested interior the above answer? I doubt that 'Truthfulbeauty' relatively has. It sounds like it includes some exciting stuff, i'm in basic terms uncertain my French would be solid adequate.

See "category mistake."

Existence claims are empirical, and thus cannot be settled by logic alone.

edit: All you have shown is that your way of interpreting these words ends up in contradiction. It's really no different than Anselm arguing that by his definition of God, God must exist. Both are just playing with words, when only evidence can settle the argument. Of course, without evidence there is no reason to be a theist, but that's a different question.

e) Not necessarily. I believe that God has two wills: His divine will, which includes things that absolutely *must* happen, and His permissive will, which He allows so long as it doesn't interfere with His divine will. That means that the examples you used in g must be part of either one. If God is all loving as we believe, then children being raped cannot be part of His divine will. Therefore, those must be things that He allows because 1) they don't interfere with His divine will, and 2) they follow the rules of the universe He created (which gives us free will).

If our God exists, there is justice for every single horrible thing that happens. Those children starving to death in various African countries will be fed in the end. Those men who rape children will face judgment.

In order to really point out the problem with your argument, I want you to take a piece of paper and poke a small hole in it. Then take that piece of paper, and place it over this link (it's a picture on Wikipedia, please don't look at the description:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hidden_Mandarin_...

That's your (and everyone else's) personal view of the entire plan. That's all you and I and everyone else see(s). Does it make any sense at all? No?

Okay, now take that piece of paper, and don't look at the picture please, and poke a few more small holes in it. Now place it over the picture again. That's the view we get when we look at human history as a whole. You can see a few things, I'm sure, but not everything, right?

Now move the paper. And think of that as being the entire plan. With our limited view, we can't possibly understand it all. But, again, if our God exists, there *is* a plan.

Most religions define their God as being loving and caring. If any of us are right, there is a plan. We may not be able to see it, but there is one. And there is justice for every single horrible thing that exists in the world.

And that sums up the entire reason why your argument lacks logic: You also lack perspective. You're trying to argue against a plan that sums up millions and millions of years of anything existing at all, with what you know of it, which is like you looking through pin-prick in that piece of paper at something incredibly vast and complex. We can't possibly comprehend it. Our minds are too finite for even a fraction of understanding. And knowing the whole truth as things sit now would blow your mind (and mine, and anyone else's for that matter).

All powerful and all knowing as defined in the question are not biblical categories. The flaw is that your premise starts with God's perfection and jumps to human suffering. The biblical teaching is that people are responsible for sin. God's power and knowledge does not compromise human freedom to reject a wholesome relationship with God and others.

Next most religions do not teach that all suffering comes from sin such as natural disasters, cancer, accidents and so on. When you watch the news do you hear God getting the blame for every hurricane, flood, war and car crash?

I think you are missing the point of things. I don't know of anywhere in the Bible it is stated that the purpose of life is to avoid suffering. In fact, some of the suffering is actually planned. For example, when Jesus healed the blind man, He said that this man was born blind so that Jesus could demonstrate His powers. But it doesn't say that God programmed every second of the blind man's life.

My belief is that we are all put here for a mission and the purpose of our life is to complete that mission. In the meantime, we should live our lives to avoid stopping other people from completing their missions.

The story of Jonah and the whale is an example of this. Jonah was called to complete a mission. In the middle of things, Jonah decided not to complete that mission so God had a whale swallow him so he would have time to consider things. God wanted Jonah to complete his mission and earn the reward. Jonah finally decided to do so and God was able to reward Jonah. The important part of the story was that Jonah was offered the Free Will to turn down God's request.

God makes The Rules..... you do not get to makeup your own.... well, you can... but it is an exercise in frustration... because.... unless you play by God's Rules.... ultimately... you lose

to properly respond to your post would require far more space than YA would allow..... I will say your post demonstrates a great deal of ignorance of The True Christian Faith..... a condition common to those who repeatedly post the same things you have posted, on a daily basis, on YA

Your argument fails at 3

(also 2 is omniscient)

God's Does love us all, but his love is not foisted on us, we must accept it.

If we push it away, it is away. and it does not cover us.

You have also left out the most important aspect.....that this life is NOT the point of existance, it's merely a proving ground for the next

This was a lot of work for nothing.

They are to stupid to answer this.

Most will just say I believe it because the bible says so.

Nicely done though, make a good point, to bad it will be lost on those who need it.